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Transcript of #bitcoin-dev for 2010/11/14

00:19 libertaar If bitcoin nodes eventually can only be run by companies, then the government may regulate them.... but it may not be possible to keep out competing currencies.
00:19 ArtForz just because you have a decent server on a fat pipe doesn't mean you're a company ;)
00:25 Diablo-D3 see
00:25 Diablo-D3 I wish I could sue anyone who uses the word regulate
00:25 Diablo-D3 regulate means to make regular
00:26 Diablo-D3 this is the usage our founding fathers used when they wrote the phrase "the government shall regulate commerce between states"
00:28 Diablo-D3 they didnt write "the government shall steal everything from you and give to the rich"
00:29 Kiba or the poor
00:29 MacRohard yea.. well the constitution is just a piece of paper
00:29 Kiba or anybody who have political connections
00:29 Diablo-D3 Kiba: see, I dont mind giving to those who are less fortunate
00:29 Diablo-D3 the government CAN regulate such things
00:30 Diablo-D3 how a society treats their poor is how a society is judged by future societies.
00:31 MacRohard or rather it's one of the more obvious ways to attack it and propagandize about why you're better
00:31 Kiba why would anybody have incentives to work if you can't accumlate wealth?
00:31 jrabbit charity is amoral though.
00:31 jrabbit using private property to allivieate the sins of private property
00:31 Kiba what sins of private property?
00:32 jrabbit its more moral than doing nothing but less moral than a real alternative
00:32 Kiba we should richly award those who have made society wealtheir
00:33 Diablo-D3 charity is neither amoral nor moral
00:33 Kiba and make poor people who take away wealth, like congressmen
00:33 Diablo-D3 "morals" cover the why, not the what
00:33 tcatm jgarzik: can i pull more often than daily?
00:33 Diablo-D3 if you do it purely because you should, then its moral
00:33 Diablo-D3 if you're doing it for the express purpose to buy karma, then not only is it amoral, you're not going to get the karma either.
00:33 Kiba if you want to divide up wealth, Diablo-D3. Give them shares in corporations.
00:34 Diablo-D3 Kiba: I dont want to divide up wealth at all
00:34 Diablo-D3 wealth, itself, is worthless
00:34 Diablo-D3 having wealth does not make you wealthy in any useful sense.
00:34 Diablo-D3 its what you do with your life is what makes you wealthy
00:35 Diablo-D3 someone who is truly happy is far more wealthy than a rich person ever could be.
00:35 Kiba ah, a romantic
00:35 trickydicknixon bahy disconnected at home
00:35 Kiba bullshit, a happy person do nothing.
00:35 Diablo-D3 Kiba: not at all.
00:35 Diablo-D3 I am not a romantic
00:35 Diablo-D3 if I was, I wouldnt be anger personified.
00:35 ArtForz romantic? not really.
00:36 Diablo-D3 I just hate people who think money does something
00:36 Kiba wealth is not about money
00:36 Kiba it's about things you enjoy
00:36 Diablo-D3 for the things I want to do in life, with all the selfish trappings attached, there simply is not enough money on earth to do what I want.
00:36 Kiba I want to live forever, and so does I want for everybody else
00:37 ArtForz yep
00:37 Diablo-D3 living forever, kiba, would be the worst punishment imaginable.
00:37 ArtForz nah, just make it voluntary
00:37 Kiba worst? there is nothing in death.
00:37 Diablo-D3 there is less than nothing in life.
00:37 trickydicknixon kibaproperty is theft
00:37 Diablo-D3 for me, it'd be an upgrade.
00:38 ArtForz if you get really bored after a few millenia just visit your nearest suicide booth ;)
00:38 trickydicknixon a man isnt born poor
00:38 Diablo-D3 trickydicknixon: neither is a man born rich.
00:38 trickydicknixon a man is born with the collective wealth of our species
00:38 trickydicknixon the knlowege and technology
00:38 Diablo-D3 you know what pisses me off about the ultra-wealthy?
00:38 Diablo-D3 they do nothing with their money
00:39 Diablo-D3 it sits and rots.
00:39 Diablo-D3 what is the purpose of money if you do nothing with it?
00:39 trickydicknixon that and they accumulate wealth by ownership
00:39 Kiba Peter Thiel is doing something with his wealth
00:40 OneFixt As much as you may not like it, we do have to give everyone the freedom to do as he wishes with his wealth.
00:40 Diablo-D3 the things I want in life cannot be bought
00:40 ArtForz yep
00:40 Diablo-D3 so, for me, wealth is nothing
00:40 ArtForz personal priorities differ
00:40 OneFixt then don't let it bother you, be happy =)
00:40 Diablo-D3 the things I want in life don't exist yet, and I may not live to see them.
00:41 OneFixt Some things that I want in life can't be bought because they're not FDA approved. Like real cheese.
00:41 Kiba Diablo-D3: if there's one thing worth dying for, it's immortality
00:41 Kiba I'll galdy go to war with deathist to defend the right to immortality
00:41 Diablo-D3 immortality in this form is a pointless thing
00:42 OneFixt Kiba: What's worth living for?
00:42 OneFixt That's the important question.
00:42 Kiba that's for each of us to decide. But I decided puzzles and problems are interesting
00:42 Kiba I think I would galdly work on shipping and logistic problems all day
00:42 OneFixt Sure, they are small versions of life itse.f
00:42 OneFixt itself*
00:45 trickydicknixon kiba i dont like violence against the commons
00:45 Kiba trickydicknixon: what are yyou? a commie? What do you see in bitcoins?
00:46 trickydicknixon no corporate control.
00:46 MacRohard how about some other form of control?
00:47 Kiba people should have the right to form voluntary association
00:48 Kiba if that mean forming corporations, then so be it
00:48 MacRohard i'm not sure that corporations are really an important part of existing human control/power configurations anyway. They're sometimes used as tools, but you could easily get rid of them and things could continue much as ever.
00:48 Kiba BUT the right of individuals should be protected
00:49 trickydicknixon voulantary doesnt mean much to you
00:49 Kiba corporations as they are now creatures of the state
00:49 Kiba trickydicknixon: based on what?
00:49 Kiba raping the commons?
00:49 Kiba the best way to protect the commons is to be owned by somebody
00:50 Kiba n0body in the ocean own the fisheries
00:50 Kiba it get raped
00:50 Kiba until there is no moar
00:50 trickydicknixon well you can pretend that libertarianism predicates capitalism but the truth of the matter is the more liberty outside the state the closer we are to a communal state
00:50 trickydicknixon stats as in concept/ of being
00:50 Kiba I assure you, three years from now on, we'll have real corporations
00:51 Kiba but also mutual aid association
00:51 Kiba I did started one, btw
00:51 trickydicknixon ownership is not and cannot be the solution to ownership kiba
00:51 Kiba BUT, I think the organizations suck
00:51 trickydicknixon its not logically posibile
00:51 theymos If 99% of people want to live in communism, they can feel free. As long as they leave me alone about it.
00:51 Kiba trickydicknixon: you own bitcoins now
00:51 OneFixt stewardship is the "solution" to ownership
00:51 Kiba on the contary, ownership is the solution to 99% of the problems out there
00:53 MacRohard nah. if you want to control something that you don't currently control and it's owned by someone else then you agitate for stewardship. If it is under stewardship then you agitate for it to be sold to you.
00:54 trickydicknixon im quite aware that in a system of capitalism and private property its hard to not commit acts of violence
00:54 Kiba trickydicknixon: hahaha
00:54 Kiba I don't commit acts of violence
00:54 OneFixt MacRohard: Something like that =)
00:54 Kiba have you seen anybody commiting act of violences in the bitcoin community?
00:54 Kiba I did warns a guy that I am not doing business with him.
00:54 trickydicknixon ...
00:55 trickydicknixon you don't get the ideea that you think violence is limited to physical brutality
00:55 Kiba I am quite serious about people who commit unjustified accuscation against people. It's posioning the well of the community
00:55 Kiba trickydicknixon: brutuality in the form of taxes, yeah.
00:55 OneFixt Fair enough trickydicknixon, but in a communistic/socialistic system it's hard not to steal.
00:56 trickydicknixon violence is unilateral
00:56 trickydicknixon OneFixt: well in the context of really existing socialism, yes
00:56 Kiba there is no socialism in the bitcoin community
00:56 Kiba there is only voluntarism
00:57 trickydicknixon because the state becomes an issue
00:57 OneFixt In the USSR, it became common practice to take things from the workplace to the point that it wasn't even considered stealing.
00:57 OneFixt Which, of course, it was.
00:58 MacRohard yea. i've heard loas of stories about taking broken lightbulbs to work an switching them for wokring ones
00:58 trickydicknixon OneFixt: well ofc thats what i like to call RES not socialism as disucussed but state capitalism (degeneated workers state)
00:58 jrabbit is trickydicknixon
00:59 MacRohard really though, i don't see that humans will have much value in the near future so we're almost certain to return to communism as work will become seperated from entitlement
00:59 OneFixt trickydicknixon: I suppose that we can say then that what we have right now isn't actually Capitalism nor is it Democracy or a Republic.
00:59 jrabbit OneFixt: well of course there are msotly mixed economies.
01:00 OneFixt The problem tends to be that people take "sysem X" and call it Capitalism or Democracy or Socialism.
01:00 OneFixt And when "system X" kills a million people and enslaves 100 million more, we don't blame "system X" but blame Cablitalism or Democracy or Socialism.
01:00 OneFixt It's a little bit like saying that God doesn't exist because Religion makes no sense.
01:01 Diablo-D3 yeah
01:01 Diablo-D3 God exists independently of Religion
01:01 jrabbit Lol.
01:01 jrabbit I won't go there
01:01 OneFixt And independently of the word God.
01:01 Diablo-D3 especially since Religion comes from what gave us Science
01:01 OneFixt Call it energy if you will, call it whatever does make sense.
01:02 jrabbit ratinoalism makes me sick.
01:02 Diablo-D3 it was a group of people trying to understand the universe in terms people could understand
01:02 jrabbit I won't even pretend to play that game
01:02 Diablo-D3 Science approaches the problem from the other side
01:02 Diablo-D3 take what we know, and understand that further.
01:02 Diablo-D3 Eventually, Science will come to know the face of God, if He does indeed exist.
01:02 jrabbit mutters something about ideology
01:02 Diablo-D3 and God will either be pleased or non-plussed.
01:03 MacRohard religion is a means of control.. it's just a kind of governance. science is used similarly.
01:03 Diablo-D3 and the Religious whackos will be pissed
01:03 Diablo-D3 MacRohard: depends how you define religion
01:03 Diablo-D3 if you define it in the Christian sense of the Old Testament, then yes, it is a way of control
01:03 LobsterMan organized religion has been nothing but a bane upon humanity
01:03 Diablo-D3 if you define it in Christian sense of the New Testament, then it is not
01:04 LobsterMan used to control and keep people living in fear
01:04 jrabbit LobsterMan: I know right
01:04 Diablo-D3 Jesus himself spoke out against the corruption of power.
01:04 OneFixt If you try to understand any one thing fully, you will understand everything.
01:04 jrabbit why the hell would you bring up religino when you want to discuss ethical modes of being
01:04 Diablo-D3 Jesus raged against the machine
01:04 MacRohard Diablo-D3, sure - as long as it's not the 'right' power
01:04 Diablo-D3 and the machine ran him over.
01:04 LobsterMan jesus was a legit dude and so are his teachings, but the catholic church has retarded the original meanings of the word of jesus
01:04 MacRohard Diablo-D3, but it turns out that power is always right
01:04 Diablo-D3 LobsterMan: the catholic church is what jesus warned us about.
01:04 LobsterMan the church keeps people obedient, docile, and scared of "hell"
01:04 Diablo-D3 LobsterMan: in Jesus's day, it was the centralized jewish religion
01:05 OneFixt Cycles.
01:05 jrabbit LobsterMan: of course religion aligns with power.
01:05 Diablo-D3 but every day and age has their own religion that hoards power and money
01:05 LobsterMan i don't trust the zionists either ^+^
01:05 OneFixt Environmentalism is the new religion.
01:05 Diablo-D3 the jewish church of jesus's day has long since collapsed
01:05 LobsterMan i adhere to the church of the flying spaghetti monster
01:05 Diablo-D3 the catholic church grew up in that power vacuum
01:06 jrabbit OneFixt: I can somewhat agree with that
01:06 ArtForz OneFixt: kinda
01:06 jrabbit its being peverted in the same ways
01:06 Diablo-D3 its insane, though, that Jesus may have actually been the Son of God.... because if you listen to what he said, its the wised shit ever
01:06 jrabbit its being involved in the economic systems of coersion as equally
01:06 OneFixt Of course every religion must be convincing in its own day and age.
01:06 Diablo-D3 Jesus might as well have said absolute power corrupts absolutely
01:06 OneFixt And Environmentalism just fits so well with the times that it may fool a lot of people.
01:07 Diablo-D3 because look how the Jews solved their problem
01:07 Diablo-D3 they killed him
01:07 MacRohard Diablo-D3, eh. this is prolly version 31234 of the bible.. they've had time to work out the bugs
01:07 jrabbit OneFixt: I mean its not exactly the same but it is ideology and it functions as such
01:07 ArtForz yep, you can turn pretty much any ideology into a religion
01:07 Diablo-D3 Jesus was "a terrorist" of the first century.
01:07 Diablo-D3 I mean, think about it
01:07 bitbot New news from bitcoinsvn: s_nakamoto committed revision 179 to the Bitcoin SVN repository, changing 2 files
01:07 LobsterMan jesus like the buddha was a very wise teacher
01:08 Diablo-D3 LobsterMan: ironic you mention that
01:08 Diablo-D3 some buddist groups think jesus was another enlightened being
01:08 OneFixt;_verified=1
01:08 LobsterMan he preached forgiveness, unconditional love, non-judgmentalism
01:08 Diablo-D3 I think they're right
01:08 Diablo-D3 LobsterMan: exactly
01:08 LobsterMan i think he was englightened too
01:08 Diablo-D3 Jesus was wise beyond his years
01:08 OneFixt jrabbit:;_verified=1 speaks for itself - the fanatical side of this new 'religion'
01:08 Diablo-D3 I find it rather shameful there is no true Christian religion out there
01:09 Diablo-D3 this is why I don't go to church, or align myself with any religion
01:09 Diablo-D3 its all bullshit
01:09 OneFixt Diablo-D3: Agreed, there are a lot of great things in real Christianity.
01:09 Diablo-D3 the Gnostics come close
01:09 LobsterMan "christians" are judgmental bigots
01:09 jrabbit OneFixt: I'll look later maybe
01:09 LobsterMan jesus would be disappointed :P
01:09 Diablo-D3 but their reinterpretation of God in the Old Testament is weird.
01:09 Diablo-D3 LobsterMan: he would
01:10 LobsterMan i was raised as a roman catholic by my parents, it taught me that organized religion is bullshit
01:10 jrabbit OneFixt: the functioning ideology of global capitalism and green capitalism aren't the same as the green (party) movement though.
01:10 OneFixt Thankfully, we all have the ability to learn the things that religion is supposed to teach us.
01:10 OneFixt If we truly make it a personal priority.
01:10 jrabbit One is something trying to coax you to not take actiomn
01:10 Diablo-D3 LobsterMan: but thats the whole thing
01:10 jrabbit the other is a form of action.
01:10 Diablo-D3 Jesus said organized religion IS bullshit
01:10 Diablo-D3 you CANNOT organize religion
01:11 jrabbit who the fuck cares what a jew in palestine said?
01:11 Diablo-D3 religion is your personal relationship with God
01:11 jgarzik tcatm: _you_ may pull as often as you like
01:11 LobsterMan Diablo-D3 indeed
01:11 jgarzik tcatm: but I wanted to discourage -everyone- from doing so
01:11 LobsterMan i do believe in some sort of "god", but not in the sense of any kind of rule imposing creator like the old testament says
01:11 OneFixt jrabbit: Yeah we are always given two choices on the same topic, neither of which is the correct choice.
01:11 LobsterMan the old testament god was a pissy motherfucker
01:11 Diablo-D3 LobsterMan: well, if the GNostics are right, the god of the old testament is not god
01:12 jrabbit OneFixt: not always two but yes ideology is generally used in that way you shoudl see zizek on ideology...
01:12 jrabbit it explains alot of this
01:12 Diablo-D3 LobsterMan: instead, the god of the new testament is the real god
01:12 OneFixt jrabbit: Thanks, I'll watch it.
01:12 LobsterMan i still think the bible should be interpreted mostly allegorically and symbolically
01:12 LobsterMan not literally
01:13 LobsterMan if one chooses to take it seriously at all
01:13 LobsterMan lol
01:13 Diablo-D3 LobsterMan: and the god of the old testament is equivilent to some combination of Chaos and Nyx from roman mythology
01:13 jrabbit Zoroaster > your sky god
01:13 LobsterMan zoroaster :3
01:13 Diablo-D3 LobsterMan: some sort of offspring of two angels, and hidden from the true god
01:14 OneFixt Diablo-D3: If, for a moment, you clear your mind and ask yourself what God really is, you might find an answer. But only if you don't think about it.
01:14 jgarzik tcatm: as I noted in the forum post, it's stupid to download the "entire universe" at high frequency
01:14 jgarzik tcatm: but exceptions such as your case are perfectly fine
01:14 Diablo-D3 LobsterMan: and this offspring, hidden away from the true reality, believed he was the creator of everything, and created Man in his image
01:14 ArtForz if that 10:10 short is real it's just epic fail.
01:15 OneFixt Diablo-D3: Close! a
01:15 OneFixt And man keeps creating in the somewhat wrong image as well.
01:15 Diablo-D3 LobsterMan: Jesus was sent here by that sub-God, but was hijacked by the true high God for His purposes
01:15 OneFixt ArtForz: It is, and it was. Very epic fail.
01:15 jgarzik whee
01:15 jgarzik version 0.3.15 is out
01:15 Diablo-D3 LobsterMan: so yeah, the Gnostics have it really weird.
01:15 LobsterMan Diablo-D3 i choose to take a more agnostic view of the universe, i think that what is really going on "behind the scenes" so to say is beyond what any book or scientific prediction would indicate
01:16 jgarzik
01:16 bitbot Version 0.3.15
01:16 LobsterMan amd we just straight up don't know wtf
01:16 Diablo-D3 LobsterMan: well, it doesnt matter what God really is
01:16 Diablo-D3 LobsterMan: but most likely, the Universe was made in the image of God.
01:16 ArtForz fuck, that had to be a fucking PR miracle worker that sold them on that one
01:16 LobsterMan or....the universe is god :#
01:16 OneFixt LobsterMan: You may want to take a look at Remote Viewing.
01:16 Diablo-D3 LobsterMan: or yes, the universe is god
01:16 LobsterMan astral projection?
01:16 LobsterMan :P
01:16 Diablo-D3 LobsterMan: which would essentially be the same thing
01:17 OneFixt LobsterMan: not necessarily, there are several types.
01:17 LobsterMan i think carl sagan put it best when he said something along the lines of
01:17 ArtForz I've seen plenty of spots where you think "and someone actually thought this was a good idea and PAID for it?", but this one easily takes the cake
01:17 LobsterMan we are a tool created by the universe so that the universe may know itself
01:17 Diablo-D3 ArtForz: what video?
01:17 Diablo-D3 LobsterMan: which is quite entirely possible
01:17 ArtForz;_verified=1
01:17 jgarzik interesting!
01:17 OneFixt ArtForz: I amuse myself by thinking that the person making this video was actually AGAINST the group for which he made it. But I think he was just not thinking.
01:17 jgarzik BitcoinMiner processes transactions in priority order based on age of dependencies
01:17 jgarzik neat
01:18 jgarzik wonders if GPU miners do that
01:18 ArtForz mine does
01:18 tcatm jgarzik: is a poll every 30mins okay?
01:18 jgarzik tcatm: sure
01:18 jgarzik tcatm: it's only 40k or so
01:19 Diablo-D3 wow
01:19 Diablo-D3 this video
01:19 Diablo-D3 it pisses me off
01:19 Diablo-D3 no one talks like that
01:19 jrabbit this is just the beginning
01:19 Diablo-D3 the people in the UK should be pissed off at this
01:19 Diablo-D3 jrabbit: you must read HN
01:19 ArtForz independent thought, kill the heretics!
01:19 jrabbit Diablo-D3: mmhmmm
01:19 Diablo-D3 jrabbit: :D
01:19 LobsterMan altruism is something which baffles science and especially philosophy
01:20 LobsterMan modern academic philosophy is just a bunch of drivel imo
01:20 LobsterMan derp derp determinism derp
01:20 jrabbit contiental philosophy
01:20 jrabbit derp
01:20 LobsterMan wut about quantum mechanics
01:20 Diablo-D3 HOLY SHIT
01:20 Diablo-D3 THIS IS AWESOME
01:21 Diablo-D3 its like watching a bad episode of doctor who!
01:21 ArtForz either this video is epic fail, or epic win missing a tag
01:21 LobsterMan lol...
01:21 theymos ArtForz: How long have you been prioritizing based on age?
01:21 ArtForz a few days I think
01:22 ArtForz r176, right?
01:22 ArtForz 4 days
01:22 Diablo-D3 they're going about this climate change shit wrong
01:22 LobsterMan kkkarbon kkkredits
01:22 LobsterMan <_<
01:22 LobsterMan »_»
01:23 Diablo-D3 I mean
01:23 Diablo-D3 we're in the future right?
01:23 OneFixt Diablo-D3: Climate inquisition.
01:23 Diablo-D3 this is now
01:23 Diablo-D3 the future.
01:23 Diablo-D3 we're in it.
01:23 Diablo-D3 its 2010
01:23 Diablo-D3 this is the future.
01:23 Diablo-D3 which means we can change the goddamned fucking climate if we fucking say so
01:23 OneFixt Diablo-D3: HAARP
01:23 Diablo-D3 it doesnt matter if its getting warmer because of us or not
01:23 Diablo-D3 we can make it cooler.
01:23 LobsterMan haarp is some shit...
01:24 LobsterMan see here:
01:24 LobsterMan
01:24 jgarzik yes, SVN r176
01:24 Diablo-D3 and it can be done by cutting carbon emissions
01:24 Diablo-D3 and the way you do that is
01:24 Diablo-D3 STOP USING IT
01:24 Diablo-D3 no more coal
01:24 Diablo-D3 no more gas
01:24 Diablo-D3 no more oil
01:24 Diablo-D3 all electric.
01:24 OneFixt Diablo-D3: See now you're getting somewhere. We can change a lot of things. And we certainly can gather zero-point energy without burning things. Ask why we don't and you'll understand how the world works.
01:24 Diablo-D3 OneFixt: the world doesnt work
01:25 Diablo-D3 Ive been saying this for close to a decade
01:25 OneFixt Diablo-D3: It works for some people.
01:25 Diablo-D3 if Obama, right now, said invade Saudi Arabia
01:25 Diablo-D3 I'd be 100% behind it
01:25 Diablo-D3 kill the largest terrorist organization on the planet before they kill us
01:25 OneFixt "The world doesn't work." Is actually a trap.
01:26 Diablo-D3 if it works for "some people", then, by definition, it doesnt work
01:26 OneFixt If you think it doens't work, if you think the people running things are incompetent, then you won't suspect how brilliant and efficient they actually are.
01:26 Diablo-D3 OneFixt: they're not efficient enough
01:26 LobsterMan lol Diablo-D3 allegedly saudi arabia has just blocked facebook
01:26 Diablo-D3 which is the problem
01:26 Diablo-D3 if you have poor people
01:26 Diablo-D3 your system is inefficient
01:26 Diablo-D3 if you have people not working at 100%, your system is inefficient.
01:27 OneFixt Diablo-D3 =)
01:27 OneFixt Diablo-D3 surely you will soon see
01:27 OneFixt that this is a farm
01:27 OneFixt The farm works.
01:27 OneFixt For the owners.
01:27 Diablo-D3 OneFixt: not at all.
01:27 Diablo-D3 the rich people exist because we allow them to
01:27 OneFixt Rich != owners
01:28 Diablo-D3 what would they do if, tommorow, the USD was declared invalid?
01:28 OneFixt There are many levels, the rich are just one of those levels beyond which most people cannot see.
01:28 Diablo-D3 the 10% richest people in the world would, overnight, become nobody.
01:28 Diablo-D3 they would be less than nobody.
01:28 Diablo-D3 they would have less than nothing.
01:29 OneFixt Ordo ab Chao.
01:29 OneFixt Something new would come from the resulting chaos, and you may not know ahead of time what that something would be.
01:29 OneFixt But there are people who would predict and guide the chaos into a new order.
01:29 Diablo-D3 thats a two edged coin
01:29 Diablo-D3 er\
01:29 Diablo-D3 thats a two edged sword
01:29 OneFixt And unless you understand as much as they do, you may not end up where you think you will.
01:30 Diablo-D3 no one can predict the resulting new order
01:30 OneFixt They can create it, have been creating it for hundreds of years.
01:30 Diablo-D3 and your latin is bad
01:30 Diablo-D3 its ordo ad chaos
01:30 OneFixt that's if it's "ad"
01:30 OneFixt I said "ab"
01:31 Diablo-D3 you'd want chaos ab ordo then
01:31 OneFixt ordo ab chao -> order from chaos
01:32 OneFixt Diablo-D3: Sorry I have to run. This is really getting to be a great conversation though so let's definitely continue it at some point.
01:33 Diablo-D3 yes
01:34 Diablo-D3 OneFixt: btw, you could just say staged events, which is closer to the Bush way of thinking you'd want
01:36 OneFixt Diablo-D3: Staged events are a neat way of phrasing it. You just have to add to that a very high level of complexity where each event has meaning on many different levels.
01:36 OneFixt ok, ttyl!
01:59 tcatm now has a market overview
02:06 LobsterMan
02:14 Diablo-D3 what is that?
02:15 LobsterMan
02:15 LobsterMan tasty fruit ^_^
02:15 LobsterMan err
02:15 LobsterMan
02:15 LobsterMan that
02:22 Diablo-D3 huh
02:24 LobsterMan it is a litchi
02:28 XxMalouinxX ;;estimate
02:28 gribble Error: "estimate" is not a valid command.
02:28 XxMalouinxX ;estimate
02:28 bitbot XxMalouinxX: LastDiff(4d 12:59:04 ago) ExpBlocks(653) ActualBlocks(927) TrgNewDiffDate(2010/11/23 12:29:28 GMT) EstNewDiffDate(2010/11/19 09:30:20 GMT) EstNewDiff(6439.8160819)
02:38 nanotube hm, listtransactions hasn't made it into .15 eh...
03:00 Teppy nanotube: You around?
03:01 nanotube Teppy: o/
03:04 xelister hello
03:04 xelister someone said radeons are good for generating?
03:04 ArtForz yes
03:04 nanotube xelister: yes a lot of people said that. :)
03:05 xelister after moving nvidia -> radeon, it does not start at all
03:05 xelister python ---> cannot open shared object ; /usr/lib/pymodules/python2.6/pyopencl/", line 3
03:06 Diablo-D3 because I doubt you're doing it right
03:06 xelister this exact problem is mentioned in forums, but I dont see a finall solution (also most of people there refer to windows version, which is identical, instead it says "missing DLL")
03:06 Diablo-D3 add ati stream sdk to your ld library path first
03:06 ArtForz "you're doing it wrong."
03:06 LobsterMan m0m's miner works for me :P
03:06 xelister works for me too, on nv
03:06 Diablo-D3 DiabloMiner works for me.
03:06 Diablo-D3 xelister: rtfm, srsly
03:07 lfm LobsterMan, whats your cpu utilization for the gpu tasks?
03:07 LobsterMan if i turn off cpu generation in bitcoin.exe my cpu usage is negligible
03:07 LobsterMan less than 1%
03:07 Diablo-D3 only if you use 2.1
03:08 xelister that ATI Stream SDK is even packed for ubuntu?
03:08 lfm LobsterMan, bitcoin.exe? you're using mswin? thats your first mistake
03:08 Diablo-D3 xelister: no, you download it
03:09 LobsterMan :P
03:09 LobsterMan it works for me
03:09 Diablo-D3 xelister: and rtfm
03:09 LobsterMan both poclbm.exe processes have less than 10mins of cpu time and theyve been open for a while
03:09 Diablo-D3 there is no excuse for not rtfm
03:09 xelister Diablo-D3: which fucking manual, there is none with poclbm
03:09 Diablo-D3 for ati stream sdk.
03:09 joe_1 are there any hosting solutions that accept bitcoins
03:10 xelister which version of it works better with miner, 2.01 or 2.1
03:10 lfm sdk is for "software developers" its right there in the name
03:10 xelister joe_1: mundavsomething and sharksomething, its on Trafers page on
03:10 joe_1 ok
03:10 xelister * Trade
03:10 Diablo-D3 xelister: you mean 2.1 or 2.2
03:10 theymos joe_1: ,
03:11 xelister Diablo-D3: so which version works best? its a single card setup
03:11 Diablo-D3 xelister: 2.2 has a better compiler, but it uses whatever idle cpu time you have
03:11 Diablo-D3 and since you're not using that cpu time anyhow, who cares
03:11 Diablo-D3 and if you're going to use my miner, you need 2.2 anyhow
03:12 xelister Diablo-D3: how your miner differs from m0's?
03:12 Diablo-D3 mine runs faster.
03:12 LobsterMan it's java
03:12 LobsterMan and also doesn't work with nvidia cards :P
03:13 Diablo-D3 LobsterMan: no, it DOES work on nvidia cards
03:13 LobsterMan in theory
03:13 xelister how it can work faster, it uses other OpenCL program>
03:13 LobsterMan not so much in practive XD
03:13 LobsterMan practice*
03:13 Diablo-D3 xelister: no, pretty much the same kernel, m0's host code is just inefficient
03:13 xelister <_<
03:13 Diablo-D3 xelister: on my 4850, I get 70mhash out of mine as tweaked as hard as I can, 66 max out of his
03:13 LobsterMan Diablo-D3 is there any way to get yours to work on windows at present with an nvidia card?
03:13 Diablo-D3 LobsterMan: yes, use the beta drivers
03:14 LobsterMan i thought you said they didn't actually have opencl 1.1?
03:14 Diablo-D3 well, thats what someone in the thread said
03:14 Diablo-D3 but nvidia's download page says otherwise
03:14 LobsterMan hmm
03:14 Diablo-D3 and since I neither own nvidia hardware nor use windows, I'm stuck somewhere between dont give a fuck and dont give a fuck.
03:15 LobsterMan still got this sitting on my desktop but i'm kind of hesitant to try it
03:15 LobsterMan devdriver_3.2_winvista-win7_64_260.61_general.exe
03:15 Diablo-D3 LobsterMan: you're going to get it eventually anyhow
03:15 LobsterMan yeah
03:15 LobsterMan as soon as nvidia gets off their ass
03:15 LobsterMan could be a while lol
03:16 xelister 6. Government End Users. If you are acquiring the Software on behalf of any unit or agency of the United States Government, [...] "RESTRICTED RIGHTS". Use, duplication, or disclosure by the Government is subject to restrictions as set forth in DFARS 227.7202-1(a) and 227.7202-3(a) (1995), DFARS 252.227-7013(c)(1)(ii) (Oct 1988), FAR 12.212(a)(1995), FAR 52.227-1
03:16 xelister ^-- part of SDK's EULA.
03:16 xelister hehe americans and their silly laws
03:17 Diablo-D3 xelister: yeah, its kind of scary when you have to indemnify yourself against the government
03:17 Diablo-D3 dude
03:17 Diablo-D3 at least we HAVE laws
03:17 xelister as set forth in DFARS 227.7202-1(a)
03:17 LobsterMan hahahaha
03:17 Diablo-D3 in other countries, they just take your employees hostage and execute them
03:17 LobsterMan Diablo-D3 :P
03:17 xelister hihi DFARTS 227.7202
03:17 xelister Diablo-D3: perhaps in china
03:17 Diablo-D3 they do that in china and saudi arabia and other backwards places
03:17 xelister Diablo-D3: there is plenty of places other then usa that are not 3rd world
03:18 xelister there are alos places much better to live in then USA, probably switzerland etc
03:18 Diablo-D3 those other places are very very small
03:18 xelister lol
03:18 xelister what?
03:18 Diablo-D3 also. I suspect there is matching language for euro countries somewhere in that eula
03:19 xelister like entire europe and other places including totall size (citizens) bigger then entire usa
03:19 Diablo-D3 xelister: lolno.
03:19 Diablo-D3 the EU is tinly little spec.
03:19 xelister EU is little?
03:19 Diablo-D3 LEETLE
03:19 Diablo-D3 CRUSH LIKE A BUG
03:20 Diablo-D3 WHA-HA-HA-HA-HA
03:20 Diablo-D3 wait, now I sound like the soviet union :<
03:20 xelister population: 500.000.000
03:20 Diablo-D3 seriously though
03:20 Diablo-D3 who the fuck cares what the eula says
03:20 xelister USA population: 300.000.000
03:20 Diablo-D3 Ive been ignoring eulas since the dawn of time
03:23 LobsterMan eulas are like the bible, people just skip to the end without reading and say i agree
03:23 Diablo-D3 ... I.... uh..... wow.
03:23 xelister :]
03:23 Diablo-D3 I am Count Sperm, and this affects me how?
03:24 nanotube LobsterMan: lol
03:25 LobsterMan :P
03:28 tcatm bcm PecunixGAU has too many leading zeros :/
03:29 nanotube heh just wait for bitcoins to appreciate, and the problem will solve itself. :P
03:29 Kiba when hell freezes over, bitcoins will be far more valuable than gold
03:30 ArtForz just shift the decimal point right 3 places and call it milligau
03:31 xelister LobsterMan: I dont actually see any manual in the downloaded SDK either. you just copy the unpacked bin/ and lib/ and include/ into /usr/ ?
03:31 Kiba NOt even the federal reserves can beat a bunch of computer geeks, because computer geeks will inherit the earth!
03:31 LobsterMan i'm not sure?
03:31 xelister wait
03:31 xelister Diablo-D3: ^ :) I dont actually see any manual in the downloaded SDK either. you just copy the unpacked bin/ and lib/ and include/ into /usr/ ?
03:31 Kiba Bitcoins will inherit the earth!
03:32 LobsterMan slaps xelister around with a heavy metal pole
03:32 bitbot starts headbanging
03:32 tcatm now displays relative and absolute changes during last trading day
03:32 LobsterMan Kiba i think you got that mixed up :P
03:32 Kiba I do?
03:33 LobsterMan from a rush song
03:33 xelister tcatm: thaat is yours site? nice
03:33 LobsterMan from 2112 i think
03:33 LobsterMan
03:34 LobsterMan "and the meek shall inherit the earth"
03:34 LobsterMan :P
03:34 LobsterMan nevermind
03:34 xelister cuts LobsterMan with a big knife and grills fishdicks
03:34 LobsterMan :O
03:34 xelister or fishsticks, whatever :P
03:34 tcatm xelister: yes, I'm improving it whenever I have some spare time
03:35 LobsterMan fishdicks
03:35 LobsterMan XD
03:35 LobsterMan fish-dicks
03:35 LobsterMan hehehe
03:35 xelister that reminds me of Kanye West
03:36 LobsterMan oh lawd
03:36 LobsterMan gayfish
03:36 xelister speaking of gay
03:36 xelister why nvidia just worked and this radeon can't
03:36 LobsterMan lol
03:36 LobsterMan :\
03:36 xelister *work as OpenCL with m0's miner / with pyopencl
03:37 xelister Diablo-D3: yea I have java and radeon, where to grab your miner to give it a try?
03:37 Diablo-D3 see the thread
03:45 joe_1 has anyone tried kalyhost and is it good
03:47 xelister_ well this sucks donkey balls
03:49 xelister_ nvidia beats radeon with JustWorkingness
03:50 xelister_ thanks for providing install instructions with stupid, ungoogable, unfindable PDF shit file, instead of a hmtl page
03:51 xelister_ also thanks assholes for not providing a simple or a README.txt in the actuall textfile
03:51 xelister_ ;)
03:51 xelister_ (it was to ATI SDK guys, not bitcoin guys ofcourse)
03:52 tcatm unzip, settings a few environment vars, and it works?
03:52 tcatm s/ s//
03:52 xelister_ tcatm: that is my point
03:52 xelister_ 10 minutes to google this shit PDF file, 15 seconds to do it
03:53 xelister_ or they could write with 3 "cp -ar" instructions, instead of devliperin a 5 PAGE PDF ;)
03:57 xelister_ joe_1: didn't tried
03:57 xelister_ joe_1: how is working for you?
03:58 joe_1 its good but incoming port is not port 80
03:58 xelister_ joe_1: you can not unblock more ports, just one per host right?
03:59 joe_1 i think they will give you a few but they wont be port 80
04:03 xelister_ tcatm: actually even after following the 5 page install "manual", the python m0's miner looks for .so.1 instead .so files... I can symlink it, but strange
04:07 xelister_ after following the manual and heaving /usr/ati-stream-sdk-v2.2-lnx64/lib/x86_64/{.1} in place finally and accessible by python, now m0's miner says:
04:07 xelister_ pyopencl.LogicError: clGetPlatformIDs failed: invalid/unknown error code
04:09 xelister_ ok, IDK problem. all works ;)
04:09 xelister_ *icd
04:09 Diablo-D3 Jesus christ.
04:10 Diablo-D3 Is it really fucking that hard to read the fucking manual
04:10 Diablo-D3 r. t. f. m.
04:10 Diablo-D3 DO IT
04:10 Diablo-D3 DO IT NOW
04:10 xelister_ Diablo-D3: It WORS
04:10 xelister_ WORKS
04:10 Diablo-D3 I still reserve my right to rage.
04:10 XxMalouinxX lol
04:10 xelister_ nvidia: 0 seconds fucking with it ; radeon: 1 h fucking with it
04:10 XxMalouinxX that D3 for you
04:10 xelister_ no, I have rage
04:10 xelister_ they should rename Radeon to RAGEON
04:10 XxMalouinxX HAHAHA
04:10 xelister_ <_<
04:10 Diablo-D3 1 hour? wtf?
04:10 xelister_ I can't install this shitty RAGEON !!!!
04:11 Diablo-D3 you unzip the fucking ati stream sdk
04:11 Diablo-D3 then you untar the icd in /
04:11 Diablo-D3 and then you set your LD_LIBRARY_PATH to the right value
04:11 Diablo-D3 AND ITS DONE
04:11 xelister_ nvidia didnt require me to uninstall no gay shit sdk from so unauthorized (crypto signed by ubuntu) site
04:11 xelister_ nor it required me to lick its balls, it just worked
04:11 Diablo-D3 "unauthorized"
04:11 Diablo-D3 lololol
04:11 Diablo-D3 fail
04:11 xelister_ by my system vendor
04:12 Diablo-D3 "system vendor"
04:12 Diablo-D3 fail.
04:12 xelister_ ubuntu?
04:12 XxMalouinxX lol
04:12 xelister_ well, better then winblows
04:12 Diablo-D3 "ubuntu"
04:12 Diablo-D3 fail
04:12 xelister_ what you then recommend?
04:12 xelister_ fucking gnu hurd?
04:12 XxMalouinxX java ? ;)
04:12 Diablo-D3 debian, you douchebag.
04:12 xelister_ RAGEON 2.2 SUPPORTS HURD *NOW*
04:12 xelister_ =)
04:12 xelister_ (*) with a free copy of Duke Nukem Forever II
04:12 Diablo-D3 anyhow, AMD will be bundling the relevant libs with 10.12
04:13 Diablo-D3 like nvidia does now
04:13 xelister_ (**) limited offer. DNFII is (c) by the name owner
04:13 Diablo-D3 the only reason they didnt is because they wern't ready for end users yet.... nvidia didnt give a fuck and has been fucking end users for at least a year
04:13 xelister_ XxMalouinxX: java? No man, I use my toaster for toasts only.
04:13 Diablo-D3 so, again, AMD > Nvidia
04:13 XxMalouinxX xelister_: tell that to D3 :P
04:14 Diablo-D3 yes, god forbid I write a miner in a language that is faster than python
04:14 xelister_ Diablo-D3: nvidia: 1 fuckin; amd: googling, installing not cryrpto verified shit and they didnt bothered to write 2 lines README.txt file with like: UNPACK TO /usr/, EXPORT VAR, UNPACK ICD, THATS IT
04:14 Diablo-D3 "not crypto verified"
04:14 xelister_ Diablo-D3: nvidia: 0 fuckin; amd: 1 hour fucking: googling, installing not cryrpto verified shit and they didnt bothered to write 2 lines README.txt file with like: UNPACK TO /usr/, EXPORT VAR, UNPACK ICD, THATS IT
04:14 Diablo-D3 xelister_: why the fuck are you unpacking things to /usr?
04:14 Diablo-D3 you dont unpack the stream sdk in /usr.
04:15 xelister_ actually why not?
04:15 xelister_ yea it could be in /opt/ but me
04:15 xelister_ meh
04:15 Diablo-D3 because it'll conflict with shit when 10.12 ships
04:15 Diablo-D3 and it leaves shit all over the place
04:15 Diablo-D3 its not meant to be installed at all
04:15 xelister_ Diablo-D3: R T F M
04:15 xelister_ "1. Untar the SDK to a location of your choice."
04:16 xelister_ :>
04:16 XxMalouinxX return to fucking manufacturer ? =D
04:16 xelister_ of your choice
04:16 Diablo-D3 xelister_: yes. and /usr isnt one of those choices.
04:16 xelister_ I choosen /usr/, now what motherfuckers
04:16 xelister_ :P
04:16 xelister_ hehe
04:16 xelister_ what was your choice Diablo-D3
04:16 Diablo-D3 ~/code, which has turned into a dir full of shit over the years.
04:19 Diablo-D3 I probably have 100gb worth of random shit in there
04:19 xelister_ [0]
04:19 xelister_ [1]
04:19 xelister_ lol wha?
04:19 Diablo-D3 start it with -d 1
04:19 xelister_ I fucking know that, Diablo-D3 ;)
04:19 xelister_ but, Rageon sure goes out of its way to confused users
04:19 Diablo-D3 you're using 2.1 right?
04:20 xelister_ why name the GFX card Radeon, when you can anme it 'Junpier' at 0x2f40700 ;)
04:20 xelister_ 2.2
04:20 Diablo-D3 hmm, it should know the right name for that
04:20 xelister_ well it doesnt. Its a 5770
04:20 Diablo-D3 btw, it IS named juniper
04:20 Diablo-D3 thats the actual name of the arch
04:20 xelister_ Diablo-D3: sure it is, still the users want to see name like Graphics Card, ot at least "Radeon"
04:21 Diablo-D3 xelister_: not at all
04:21 xelister_ well that is actually not a problem, just saying, Rageon needs to get imho more habit of being userfriendly with small things like this
04:21 Diablo-D3 xelister_: because end users _arent supposed to be selecting things here_
04:21 Diablo-D3 m0 wrote it wrong
04:21 Diablo-D3 mine has no such bugs.
04:21 xelister_ well, anyway, its not an issue :)
04:22 Diablo-D3 mine selects everything thats not a cpu, and uses it.
04:22 xelister_ 150 M motherfuckers
04:22 xelister_ ok then thats all
04:22 xelister_ at least it was fun :)
04:22 Diablo-D3 xelister_: only 150?
04:22 xelister_ hits the bed
04:22 Diablo-D3 that seems low for some reason
04:22 xelister_ its not dedicated miner box
04:22 xelister_ bbl o/
04:23 xelister_ btw in linux with radeon how you check gfx temperature, power, MHz etc?
04:23 tcatm aticonfig --adapter=all --odgt
04:23 tcatm and --odgc
04:24 Diablo-D3 hmm
04:24 Diablo-D3 thats not working right on my card
04:24 Diablo-D3 it says I have a temp of 64c
04:26 Diablo-D3 ArtForz:!
04:51 xelister_ radeon5770 (m0's miner) 152 M for 1fps-for-desktop 140M-150M for 30fps-for-desktop
04:51 xelister_ normal?
04:57 xelister_ Diablo-D3: 77C on mine
04:58 xelister_ 66c is temp for 0 GPU load, are you sure your miner is running, Diablo-D3
04:59 xelister_ radeon5770 users, do you get this 160M when OC or normal? Are you also using desktop on this box at that time?
05:02 Diablo-D3 xelister_: this is on a 4850, and Im using a third party heatsink
05:02 Diablo-D3 its far higher than it should be
05:02 xelister_ ah
05:02 Diablo-D3 it should be around 45c
05:02 xelister_ what do you think about my quoted above results?
05:02 Diablo-D3 maybe mining pushes it harder
05:02 Diablo-D3 xelister_: ask art
05:02 Diablo-D3 he knows
05:02 xelister_ what speed you got at radeon4850?
05:05 Diablo-D3 around 70.
05:05 ArtForz stock 5770 using my miner gets 160M
05:06 xelister_ not 152 ?
05:06 ArtForz OCed to 1000 core 188M
05:06 ArtForz nope
05:06 ArtForz I'm using my custom miner, not m0s
05:06 xelister_ Im running also a normal desktop at this box, but 152 is max even with -f 1
05:06 xelister_ ah
05:07 xelister_ did you changed the opencl program code?
05:07 ArtForz yep
05:07 xelister_ sharing it?
05:07 ArtForz actually my kernel is quite a bit older
05:08 ArtForz wouldnt help much, you'd have to completely revamp the host code as well
05:08 xelister_ sharing your miner?
05:12 ArtForz 152 sounds right for m0s miner
05:12 xelister_ pretty please?
05:12 xelister_ puppy eyes
05:13 xelister_ ;)
05:13 xelister_ tweaks m0's do do better stats
05:13 ArtForz theoretical peak for optimized bitcoinhash on a stock 5770 is 163.9Mh/s
05:15 ArtForz stock 5970 is 559.3, 5970 @ 910 is 702Mh/s
05:16 ArtForz my miner is getting 97.5 - 97.6% of peak
05:17 ArtForz I doubt it'll get much better without hand-optimizing the shader asm
05:26 Diablo-D3 ArtForz: yeah but
05:26 Diablo-D3 I should still get faster than 72 :<
05:28 ArtForz 72?
05:29 ArtForz my calc says theoretical peak should be 78.66
05:29 ArtForz getting more than 90% peak out of a 4xxx is a royal PITA
05:30 Diablo-D3 yeah but you'd get, what, 75?
05:30 ArtForz yeah
05:30 Diablo-D3 so I still have at least 4 to go
05:32 ArtForz honestly I dont get why you even bother with 4xxx
05:33 Diablo-D3 because I cant afford to buy a new card yet
05:34 Diablo-D3 and actually, its closer to around 71 =/
05:35 Diablo-D3 ArtForz: btw, aticonfig says gpu load 98%
05:35 ArtForz so?
05:36 Diablo-D3 I assume its not true?
05:36 ArtForz usage doesnt count % of VLIW used
05:36 Diablo-D3 my mhash meter is reading 69.5 mhash atm
05:37 Diablo-D3 so that'd give me 71 max, right?
05:37 Diablo-D3 ArtForz: also bleh
05:37 Diablo-D3 so its not a useful number
05:37 ArtForz so if your T units are mostly sitting around doing nothing you get 80% peak perf @ 99% load
05:37 ArtForz (my peak numbers assume 100% utilization)
05:40 ArtForz not too sure how much loss clause boundarys cause
05:42 ArtForz load/store clauses should be "free" as afair those can execute in parallel to computation clauses
05:55 Keefe ArtForz: see pm?
06:08 dwdollar1 So this guy with an email address '' wants to join Bitcoin Market? Should I let him?
06:08 dwdollar1 j/k
06:08 noagendamarket lmao
06:09 dwdollar1 :-D
06:10 dwdollar1 You think they'd be a little more inconspicuous.
06:13 noagendamarket ?
06:13 dwdollar1 lol
06:17 noagendamarket
06:17 noagendamarket lol
06:29 nanotube dwdollar1: hey, maybe he's the author of a keylogger software called "lucifer keylogger"... nothing wrong with that.
06:32 dwdollar1 Maybe... but a lot of the scammers used lucifer/devil/666 in their emails and usernames, so it leaves me skeptical.
06:32 Diablo-D3 heh, strange people
06:36 nanotube dwdollar1: heh ic ...
06:36 nanotube yea strange indeed.
06:36 nanotube s/strange/stupid/ :P
06:36 jgarzik dwdollar1: I was thinking that bitcoin-otc trust metric might be a useful guide for new registrants
06:40 dwdollar1 I will register anyone with a good rating on bitcoin-otc, although I suspect many of them already have an account on bitcoin market.
06:40 dwdollar1 I wonder if I can integrate it somehow into the website.
06:41 dwdollar1 Was developing a simple rating system myself.
06:41 theymos dwdollar1: Why not have invites?
06:41 dwdollar1 I will have that too.
06:42 dwdollar1 An invitation / rating system.
06:42 noagendamarket a snazzy button that shows your rating :)
06:42 theymos Will BCMv2 still be P2P, or will you hold money like MtGox?
06:44 dwdollar1 It's going to be both. I think I've got a system that will work. Orders will have a currency + processor. An automatic trade will have 'BitcoinMarket' as the processor.
06:44 nanotube dwdollar1: as far as linking into website: you could just link to a url of this form:
06:45 nanotube of course there's the problem of verification, namely that $user on your site doesn't claim someone else's nick on -otc....
06:46 nanotube the otc trust is kinda still in its infancy... and irc-based only.
06:46 Diablo-D3 waits for fucking fsck.
06:49 dwdollar1 We could enforce some kind of username uniqueness upon registration at Bitcoin Market or Bitcoin-OTC. The -OTC could be the start of a community wide rating system.
06:50 theymos I hope BCMv2 is easy-to-use. I think most people use MtGox because it's easier than BCM.
06:50 LobsterMan
06:52 Diablo-D3 please say thats the mc hammer version
06:52 LobsterMan clicky ^
06:52 Diablo-D3 is STILL waiting for fsck
06:56 LobsterMan also:
07:08 Diablo-D3 LobsterMan: you know its fucked up when you realize joeseph smith was totally tripping balls
07:08 LobsterMan lol
07:08 LobsterMan was he?
07:09 Diablo-D3 after heavy LSD abuse he believed God was really some sort of rainbow colored salamander
07:09 LobsterMan i didnt think they had lsd in jospeph smith's day?
07:09 Diablo-D3 it was something
07:09 LobsterMan lsd wasn't discovered until the 1950s or something
07:09 LobsterMan j.smith was alive in like 1880
07:10 Diablo-D3 it was a hallucinigenic
07:10 Diablo-D3 he was tripping balls on it
07:11 LobsterMan ergot?
07:15 Diablo-D3 the interwebs isnt helping
07:15 LobsterMan
07:20 Diablo-D3 either way
07:20 Diablo-D3 he was out of his mind
07:20 Diablo-D3 I dont know how the LDS Church is still around
07:20 LobsterMan ignorance
07:20 LobsterMan they prey on people
07:20 Diablo-D3 yes, but people have wikipedia like everyone else
07:20 LobsterMan one of my friends fell into the mormon trap
07:21 LobsterMan he converted after his dad died, those sneaky fuckers go after people during rough times
07:21 theymos Scientology is still around. People like cults.
07:22 LobsterMan people are dumb, and the worthless degenerates that ahve nothing to offer to society like to feel needed and welcome by cults such as scientology and the "church" of latter day saints
07:22 nanotube Just think of how stupid the average person is, and then realize half of them are even stupider! --George Carlin
07:22 LobsterMan a bit of a callous statement perhaps......but true imo
07:37 Maccer Agroist up in hea'.
07:46 joe_1 has anyone used hostarium
07:55 Diablo-D3 I
08:04 joe_1 diablo
08:04 joe_1 you have used hostarium?
08:04 Diablo-D3 sorry, was cleaning keyboard
08:04 joe_1 o
08:04 nanotube haha
08:04 Diablo-D3 opens window
08:05 Diablo-D3 my magic isopropyl mix is too awesome
08:05 Diablo-D3 50% distilled water, 50% 90% isopropyl
08:06 Diablo-D3 its the same stuff you get in those tiny little spray bottles of monitor cleaner
08:06 Diablo-D3 except it costs me about $10 to make an entire gallon of it
08:06 nanotube so in other words... 45% isopropyl :)
08:06 Diablo-D3 nanotube: yes, but you have to get the really high purity stuff
08:06 Diablo-D3 otherwise they might be cutting it with things you dont want on your monitor
08:07 Diablo-D3 like acetone
08:07 nanotube mmm
08:09 Diablo-D3 its actually hilarious
08:10 Diablo-D3 they sell tiny bottles of this shit for like $5 to $10
08:10 Diablo-D3 mere ounces
08:10 Diablo-D3 and I make entire gallon of it for that
08:10 Diablo-D3 and I dont think they make it as strong either
08:10 joe_1 u should sell bottles of it for bitcoins
08:11 Diablo-D3 joe_1: whats the point?
08:11 joe_1 to get money
08:11 Diablo-D3 I'd just be marking it up to the same amount retailers sell it for
08:13 joe_1 should i drop the 100 bitcoins for a kaly host vps?
08:14 joe_1 will they refund if it doesnt do what i need it to do
08:15 joe_1 i cant do hostarium because they are playing the whole "if you want to fund with bitcoins, email us so we can do it manually" game.
08:16 Diablo-D3 joe_1: dont blame them
08:16 Diablo-D3 theres no really good way of handling this yet
08:17 samfisher xelister_: back
11:40 noagendamarket #bitcoin-otc
11:42 noagendamarket #bitcoin-bc
12:06 joe_1 well, kalyhost is f****** broken
12:07 joe_1 just like everything else
12:33 ne0futur joe_1: what is your problem with kalyhost ?
12:34 MT`AwAy joe_1: ?
12:38 ne0futur (12:07) < joe_1> just like everything else
12:39 ne0futur joe_1: when you feel like everything is broken, try to think the only broken thing is probably yourself :p
12:48 joe_1 kalyhost will not allow me to register
12:49 joe_1 i enter a username, password, confirm password, and it tells me the username i have chosen is an invalid openid. Ha!
12:49 MT`AwAy joe_1: you have to put more than that (address/etc)
12:49 joe_1 I put it
12:49 joe_1 but that's on a different screen. that's when i look at my cart.
12:49 MT`AwAy <- there's a video showing the order process
12:49 joe_1 i filled THAT form out, and clicked ok, and the same screen just reloaded again.
12:50 MT`AwAy mh, did you get logged in?
12:50 joe_1 no
12:50 MT`AwAy so it means something was wrong
12:51 MT`AwAy wrong fields are supposed to appear in red
12:51 joe_1 nothing was red, the passwords matched, i filled in each required field
12:51 MT`AwAy you're on the cart, right?
12:53 joe_1 yes
12:53 joe_1 let me get back to it
12:53 MT`AwAy (I see no openid error message on the cart registration form)
12:54 joe_1 ok i'm on the cart
12:55 MT`AwAy Can you compare with the video I posted ~12 lines before?
12:56 MT`AwAy (sometimes a small video is worth thousand of words)
12:57 joe_1 i'm looking at the video
12:57 joe_1 now the whole domain is down
12:57 joe_1 The server at is taking too long to respond.
12:58 MT`AwAy Oo
12:58 MT`AwAy you must have a problem with your internet connection
12:59 joe_1 theres nothing wrong with my internet connection
13:00 joe_1 it timed out when i submitted the form; have not seen that before wtih the site. it's working now.
13:00 MT`AwAy there's nothing wrong with my servers either, and Kalyhost works fine from every place I can try from
13:00 joe_1 the fact that the connection timed out when i was submitting the form is a clue that it's throwing off the site
13:01 MT`AwAy mh
13:01 joe_1 do your logs say anything? i've submitted the form about 3 times now
13:02 joe_1 each time, it just reloads. One time I forgot country, and country came back red, but I fixed it, and the same usual result is that it came back with the same form and no message saying i'm logged in or to complete the order.
13:02 joe_1 my procedure is the same as in the video
13:03 MT`AwAy I see no successful registration in the past minutes
13:03 MT`AwAy I'll do a test
13:03 joe_1 any unsuccessful?
13:03 ne0futur joe_1: try with another ISP / another browser ?
13:04 MT`AwAy ne0futur: wait
13:05 MT`AwAy mh
13:05 MT`AwAy works fine
13:05 MT`AwAy joe_1: which browser?
13:05 joe_1 firefox
13:05 MT`AwAy shouldn't be an issue
13:05 joe_1 the lowest vps
13:05 joe_1 bitcoin mode
13:06 MT`AwAy someone else already ordered a vps in bitcoins a while ago without problem
13:07 MT`AwAy gah, let's add some debug to make sure
13:07 joe_1 i mean, do you have any restrictions on the field values?
13:07 ne0futur i just signed up again on
13:07 joe_1 i put the state in as 2 letters
13:08 ne0futur no problem
13:08 joe_1 theres no dashes in the 10 digit phone number
13:08 MT`AwAy joe_1: mind trying again?
13:09 MT`AwAy ne0futur: I see you in the log
13:10 joe_1 OK - just did it again. clicked create.
13:10 MT`AwAy and got the same result I guess, only difference is I got more debug this time
13:11 joe_1 same result here
13:11 ne0futur ( also received the signup confirmation email )
13:11 joe_1 i have no confirmation email
13:11 ne0futur you register on ?
13:12 ne0futur or on another url ?
13:12 joe_1 ok - there's 2 registration places
13:12 joe_1 the first one is on register.html. When i do it there, i get an error about my username not being a valid OpenID
13:12 joe_1 the second registration place is on the cart screen
13:12 MT`AwAy oh, I see
13:12 MT`AwAy it didn't like the _ in the login
13:12 joe_1 when i register there, i click Create and the page reloads with my form data still there, and no messages saying anything succeeded
13:12 MT`AwAy I'll fix the validator
13:13 joe_1 i just tried it without the underscore and i got the same thing
13:13 joe_1 invalid openid
13:15 joe_1 it works on the other one now
13:15 joe_1 wow i can sleep tonight finally
13:15 MT`AwAy I just submitted my fix
13:15 MT`AwAy (and merged it)
13:15 MT`AwAy I guess you got the fixed version (and registered)
13:15 joe_1 i took out the underscore
13:15 MT`AwAy oh
13:16 joe_1 here goes 99 bucks down the drain
13:16 MT`AwAy well, at least it worked
13:16 joe_1 and from what i heard, i have an agonizing 6 confirmation wait ahead of me
13:16 MT`AwAy joe_1: will take ~1h to arrive (6 blocks), then you'll get an email with your VPS ip & password
13:16 MT`AwAy yep
13:16 joe_1 can i do ssh tunnel on it?
13:17 MT`AwAy you can do whatever you want, as long as you follow the rules in the ToS (no sending of spam, no child pornography, and avoid P2P of copyrighted files)
13:17 joe_1 ok
13:18 MT`AwAy btw VPS are in germany
13:18 joe_1 i need it to tunnel i hope it's fast
13:19 MT`AwAy <- I run smokeping on one of the vps which shows no lags (usually a slow vps will also have lower pings/packet loss)
13:19 joe_1 if it doesnt work do i get a full/partial refund?
13:19 MT`AwAy joe_1: we can see that if it happens
13:20 joe_1 ok here goes nothing
13:20 joe_1 get ready to receive
13:20 MT`AwAy ready anytime
13:20 MT`AwAy (the data on the order page is updated every 5min)
13:25 joe_1 ok
13:25 joe_1 1 confirmation
13:25 joe_1 artforz, can you turn on a few more radeons so i can get this confirmed?
13:29 joe_1 2 confirmations
13:30 MT`AwAy I'm switching to 3 confirmations
13:31 joe_1 3 confirmations!! yes!!!! thank you
13:32 MT`AwAy check is done every 5 minutes, and once my systems sees 3 confirmations, it'll generate your VPS and send you a nice email
13:32 joe_1 i cant wait
13:32 joe_1 i'm refreshing email every 10 seconds
13:33 MT`AwAy it happens every 5 minutes, when the clock is a xx:x0 or xx:x5 exactly
13:33 MT`AwAy so next refresh is in 1 minute 40 secs
13:33 joe_1 ok
13:33 MT`AwAy you can also reload the "order" page
13:34 MT`AwAy the order status will change once payment is confirmed
13:34 joe_1 order page still says unconfirmed, but i'll refresh it at 35
13:34 MT`AwAy it's 21:34:41 here
13:34 joe_1 ok 19 seconds
13:35 MT`AwAy confirmed
13:35 MT`AwAy arg
13:35 MT`AwAy the mail title is messed up
13:36 joe_1 yeah, the mail does not contain the information
13:36 MT`AwAy fuck
13:36 MT`AwAy the whole mail is messed up
13:36 MT`AwAy let me fix that
13:36 joe_1 it just has tags that seem to be where the information should be
13:36 MT`AwAy yep, I did some modifications last time since I had an issue with bitcoins
13:37 MT`AwAy gah
13:37 MT`AwAy the I18N context is not loaded when the order is confirmed from a different thread
13:37 MT`AwAy found the problem
13:37 MT`AwAy now fixing it
13:38 MT`AwAy joe_1: in the meantime I'll mail you your vps infos
13:38 joe_1 ok
13:41 MT`AwAy sent
13:44 joe_1 thanks
13:47 MT`AwAy and I'll fix this bug so it doesn't happen again
13:50 MT`AwAy (done)
14:00 joe_1 ok
14:00 joe_1 it works
14:01 joe_1 my site is up at http://aaa-bbb-ccc-ddd
14:01 joe_1 now i need to get my domain hooked up to that ip address
14:01 joe_1 thanks MT you really saved the day
14:04 MT`AwAy joe_1: kalyhost isn't really old yet, so there might be some problems remaining, we'll fix them as soon as someone tells us about it
14:05 joe_1 ok
14:06 MT`AwAy as for the vps itself, it is hosted on a really good network, and shouldn't have any problem
14:07 joe_1 yeah, it does seem fast
14:13 MT`AwAy (my test vps is getting close to 180 days uptime too)
14:14 joe_1 thats good
14:15 MT`AwAy anyway have fun, I'm going to sleep soon (tommorow's monday)
14:15 joe_1 ok
14:15 joe_1 thanks for all the help
14:16 MT`AwAy np
14:39 Diablo-D3 hey guys
14:40 Diablo-D3 what site did ArtForz say he got those ribbon cables at
15:12 xelister_ Diablo-D3:
15:12 xelister_ wait, what cables
15:13 xelister_ ;)
15:41 Diablo-D3 the pci-e ones
16:15 XxMalouinxX Flexible PCI-e extender
16:42 Diablo-D3 hmm this is interesting
16:42 Diablo-D3 I upgraded to 10.10 and my mhash speed is down
16:43 XxMalouinxX do you still need the website for the pci-e extender ?
16:43 Diablo-D3 XxMalouinxX: I was just wondering where art bought them
16:44 XxMalouinxX I don't know about Art, but I took mine on
16:46 XxMalouinxX ;estimate
16:46 bitbot XxMalouinxX: LastDiff(5d 03:17:22 ago) ExpBlocks(739) ActualBlocks(1069) TrgNewDiffDate(2010/11/23 12:29:28 GMT) EstNewDiffDate(2010/11/19 04:59:58 GMT) EstNewDiff(6562.05971608)
16:48 xelister would be better for BC popularity imho
16:49 xelister if we would create more but smaller blocks, or in other way give faster reward small miners
16:49 xelister waiting like a week or 3 weeks for first 50 BTC (when diff goes up) for non-professionall miners ( ;) is unmotivating
16:52 tcatm smaller blocks without transaction are wasted space
16:55 xelister tcatm: or any other way
17:06 tcatm more markets would be better than mining
17:49 UukGoblin is it ok to run m0mchil's on 2 devices? won't the nonce scanned be the same on both?
17:50 tcatm from what I've read on the forums it should work
18:05 UukGoblin tcatm, thanks. Now I think about it, bitcoind returns a different block with each 'getwork', even if you issue 2 in the same second
18:09 brocktice ;estimate
18:09 bitbot brocktice: LastDiff(5d 04:40:03 ago) ExpBlocks(748) ActualBlocks(1080) TrgNewDiffDate(2010/11/23 12:29:28 GMT) EstNewDiffDate(2010/11/19 05:12:13 GMT) EstNewDiff(6549.81553629)
18:11 brocktice still on track for mid-6000s I see
19:52 theymos lfm: You "refunded" my IP transfer to you? Took me a few minutes to figure out why I was receiving a transaction at an address I never created... :-P
19:56 xelister what we need, is bitcoin over freenet imho
19:57 theymos You could send transactions over Freenet, but the block system requires that all generators be no more than a few seconds away from each other.
19:58 xelister yeah
19:58 xelister best possible lag possible on freenet is 10..60 seconds
19:59 xelister with say 30 second lag, it means that such more hidden bitcoin node would spend 5% (because 10min/0.5 min) time mining a block that is no longer "needed" right?
19:59 xelister but for non-generating nodes, it shouldnt be a problem?
20:00 tcatm for non-generating nodes there's no need for freenet?
20:02 theymos xelister: A hidden generator would waste some time, and if a lot of people generate on Freenet there would be more chain splits.
20:02 theymos Non-generators should be able to use it without any problems at all.
20:03 xelister tcatm: if someone would buy medical marichuana
20:03 xelister or if we would watch order online (regular) porn, and he is resident of Arabic country
20:03 xelister etc
20:04 xelister theymos: yeah but there is no such setup, is there, to use bitcoin over freenet. So it would be nice if author of bitcoin would implement it
20:04 tcatm can transactions be matched to IPs?
20:05 theymos There is nothing yet. It should be reasonably easy to implement importing and exporting transactions as text, though.
20:05 xelister dunno, but if one of your 8 neighbors is listening then I would suppose so
20:05 tcatm he still can't tell whether the transaction is yours or whether you are forwarding it for someone else
20:05 theymos tcatm: Generally the attacker needs to see everything you receive and transmit. If they can do that, though, it's easy.
20:08 xelister nvidia > radeon
20:08 xelister for noraml desktop and games use
20:08 tcatm nvidia sucks for normal desktops
20:08 xelister no, radeon sucks
20:08 xelister in-games brightness controll does not work on radeon, works on nvidia
20:09 tcatm no way to lock two outputs vsync to prevent tearing on one screen
20:09 xelister scaling of images with resamplong in firefox does not work on radeon, works on nvidia
20:09 xelister resampling
20:10 xelister since I installed radeon, scaled down images in firefox look like shite, like from 1999 year software texture "scalling" with no resamling. NORMAL 2D IMAGES ON ANY AWEBSITE IN FIREFOX. wtf.
20:10 tcatm also, my nvidia defaults to output to vga even if the device connected to it is powered off so my minitor connected via dvi stays blank
20:38 Maccer xelister, isn't that what scaled down images in firefox are supposed to look like? Mine look like they have no filtering.
20:39 Maccer Except when they're enlarged of course.
20:39 tcatm i'd expect filtering when scaling down in a browser
20:40 sneak,filedetails?repname=nfhc&path;=%2Fnfhc%2Ftrunk%2Fsha256%2Fsha256.vhdl
20:40 Maccer It looks sharp as shit, it needs super sampling or something
20:42 ArtForz sneak: now synthesize it, see how many you can fit on a given FPGA and the clocks you'll be able to run
20:42 nathan7 :>
20:42 sneak ArtForz: in time
20:42 sneak other work comes first
20:43 sneak remains to be seen what the performance/watt is
20:43 sneak vs gpu
20:43 ArtForz better
20:43 nathan7 Who cares, it's damn cool anyway?
20:43 nathan7 s/\?/
20:43 nathan7 fahadsadah: pokey
20:43 !mode/#bitcoin-dev [+o nathan7] by fahadsadah
20:44 nathan7 pats fahadsadah
20:44 ArtForz yes, because $1k in FPGAs (chips only, in 1000+ quantities) nearly as fast as a $200 GPU (complete board, single unit price) is *really* exciting
20:44 @ Yep
20:48 Kiba hmm
20:49 Kiba eats food
20:49 brocktice Especially if your power is essentially free, right ArtForz?
20:49 ArtForz yup
20:49 ArtForz and the perf/W lead isn't THAT big
20:50 brocktice I wish confirmations didn't take so long
20:50 ArtForz AMD gpus are suprisingly efficient beasts
20:50 brocktice ArtForz: Now if only they would add good DP support.
20:50 ArtForz huH?
20:51 brocktice Last I heard nVidia had superior DP support in Fermi?
20:51 ArtForz LÖL
20:51 brocktice double precision?
20:51 ArtForz yes, in the tesla cards
20:51 ArtForz GTXes are crippled to 1/4 that
20:51 brocktice Yeah my former lab has a tesla card for that purpose
20:52 ArtForz so, on tesla DP is 1/2 SP perf, on GTX it's 1/8, on 58xx it's 1/5
20:52 sneak SP?
20:53 ArtForz Single Precision
20:54 sneak oh, i didn't realize there were such slowdowns
20:54 sneak does the current poclbm run on tesla?
20:54 ArtForz who cares? nvidia sucks for integer work.
20:55 brocktice sneak: Yeah it should.
20:55 brocktice But, waste of power.
20:56 ArtForz DP muladd, a tesla 2050 can push 515 GFLOPS, a GTX580 197, a 5870 544, a 5970 928 (!)
20:57 ArtForz for single precision it looks even worse for nv
20:58 ArtForz C2050 1288 GFLOPS, GTX580 1581, 5870 2720, 5970 4640
21:01 ArtForz so if you can keep the ALUs fed, even at double precision a 5870 can keep up with a C2050
21:02 ArtForz of course if you *need* the 3-6GB of memory of a tesla, it's pretty much the only option
21:06 brocktice There are some 4 GB 5970s
21:07 ArtForz yep, but as 5970 is dual GPU, thats still "only" 2 GB per GPU
21:07 brocktice ahh right
21:08 ArtForz oh, and for power efficiency... 5970 1.8Mhash/Ws, 5770 1.45Mh/Ws, 4770 0.9Mh/Ws, 4870 0.6Mh/Ws, GTX580 0.5Mh/Ws, GTX460 0.46Mh/Ws, GTX295 0.31Mh/Ws, 9800GT 0.24Mh/Ws
21:10 brocktice Miner is 32% paid off
21:10 ArtForz aka "nvidia is a waste of power and money for mining"
21:11 brocktice We'll see how price and difficulty affect the remainder.
21:14 xelister Maccer: they look totally as shin since siethcned nv to rageon
21:14 Maccer Wut.
21:14 Maccer Oh yeah.
21:15 xelister lets petition OpenCL
21:15 xelister OpenCL 1.3 - include sha256round asm instruction :]
21:15 xelister s/opencl/ati stream
21:20 xelister about fpga, its nonsense
21:20 xelister just think how epic numbers we get now on GPU, 600 M?
21:21 xelister even if we would have FGPA device that calculates sha256, how we would pump such huge datastream to it
21:21 ArtForz you dont have to
21:21 xelister unless its FGPA that does the entire bitcoin search :)
21:21 xelister just send wokrspace parameters and get results/status
21:21 ArtForz hand it a 80 bytes header, it checks 2**32 nonces
21:22 xelister indeed
21:22 ArtForz and reports back all nonces where H == 0
21:22 ArtForz external bandwidth is not the problem
21:23 ArtForz the huge fucking amount of registers and logic is
21:23 xelister production price indeed
21:25 ArtForz for a non-pipelined bitcoinhash engine you need at least 16 32-bit regs for data, another 8 for state, 10 32-bit adders, 15 32-bit 2-input boolean functions
21:26 ArtForz and that gets you one hash every 122 clocks
21:26 xelister who worked for CIA? Otto Von Bolschwing, one of creator of the plan to exterminate the Jews in II world war. And other nasists. God bless america ;)
21:27 xelister just off-topic, about yesterdays talks about usa government. ^ jgarzik and diablo is not here
21:30 xelister according to New York Times, Nazis Were Given ‘Safe Haven’ in U.S., Report Says <--
22:16 OneFixt I made a trade on BCM but am not getting the payment info in email, is this normal?
22:16 ArtForz happens sometimes
22:16 OneFixt Should I wait or send an email?
22:16 ArtForz stupid q: did you check your spam folder?
22:17 OneFixt Yep, and I've had BCM emails go through before.
22:17 ArtForz yeah, I know that one
22:17 ArtForz sometimes the mail magically shows up after a few hours, if it doesnt contact dwdollar
22:17 OneFixt Ok, thanks.
22:18 ArtForz dw should really add an option to get the same payment details as in the mail from your "trades" page :/
22:20 ArtForz that way people could trade even with the mail getting lost
22:22 dwdollar1 That's going to be in the new website. People are probably getting tired of that answer though. :-D
22:22 dwdollar1 OneFixt: Is this for trade 1191?
22:23 OneFixt dwdollar1: Yep.
22:24 dwdollar1 Looks like it bounced because it has '' in the contents... :/
22:24 OneFixt wow...
22:24 dwdollar1 anti-spam bot caught it I guess
22:24 OneFixt Guess so =(
22:24 ArtForz yeah, sounds like it :/
22:25 dwdollar1 I'll send a copy without the link.
22:25 OneFixt Ok, thanks a lot.
23:07 jrabbit :( github is down
23:28 appamatto Howdy all
23:29 appamatto github is down!?
23:29 appamatto That's a disaster
23:30 MT`AwAy was bound to happen
23:31 MT`AwAy (that's why you should never rely 100% on free services to host your code)
23:31 appamatto well, I'd consider it a disaster if they lost data
23:31 Kiba MT`AwAy: you can pay for hosting
23:31 Kiba but that's not the point. Any services will experience unexpected downtime
23:31 Kiba it's going to happen
23:32 appamatto Since I think a lot of people use free github to store data
23:32 appamatto instead of paying for their own server
23:32 Kiba what ya going to do when your own server goes down?
23:32 Kiba do you really want the task of maintaining your own server?
23:32 appamatto I had an idea for a bitcoin-like DNS system. Basically, each generating block allows you to define a new name, and transactions are remappings of the names to ip addresses
23:33 xelister DANGER
23:33 xelister and sidekick
23:33 appamatto do you think a name system like that would work?
23:34 xelister appamatto: ok, I take 10,000 names for starters
23:34 MT`AwAy Kiba: the idea is to have, for example, a mirror of you github data on your server
23:34 appamatto xelister, is that a vote of confidence? :p
23:34 MT`AwAy usually both have less chances of being down
23:34 MT`AwAy (at the same time)
23:35 Kiba MT`AwAy: cost money
23:35 xelister it would work if creation of new name costs say 50 BTC, and transfer costs 10 (to be given to author of text block or somethin)
23:35 appamatto could the two systems inter-operate?
23:35 appamatto I was just thinking that the bitcoin model does a great job of getting rid of governing bodies
23:35 Kiba interesting
23:36 Kiba the evolution of a crypto-economy
23:36 xelister name price per length: 1char/10,000 2char/1,000 3char/500 4char/200 5char/100 6+char/50btc
23:36 xelister although
23:36 xelister no wait. there should be an auction system. distributed
23:36 Kiba do price readjust?
23:36 appamatto xelister, why not just allow mining for arbitrary names?
23:36 appamatto I don't see why (or how) btc could become involved
23:36 xelister everyone would want to buy linux.bitcoin or oral.bitcoin
23:37 xelister appamatto: so evetyone would "mine" linux.bitcoin
23:37 appamatto I think what happens is that the miner can get a free name of their choice, and then sell it to whomever
23:37 appamatto that's okay, isn't it?
23:38 MT`AwAy transactions would have to carry the name, which would be a 1~63 bytes payload
23:38 xelister GOOD NEWS
23:38 MT`AwAy and we'd need a specific kind of transaction to hold the name's ip (or dns infos)
23:38 xelister .bc TLD is free
23:39 Kiba xelister: so, you're going to write code for this?
23:39 MT`AwAy xelister: if you have 125000$ we can make it a reality
23:39 xelister 125kusd for TLD?
23:39 appamatto MT, I was thinking that this is an entirely separate system with basically the same structure as bitcoin
23:39 appamatto so, there would be a DNS block chain
23:39 MT`AwAy appamatto: yep, but if this system uses a similar block/transaction system, blocks are going to get huge really fast
23:40 appamatto Why? For one, you can't have multiple i/o for a DNS transaction
23:40 appamatto just an address, an ip, and a name
23:41 appamatto instead of multiple addresses, source transactions, amounts, etc.
23:42 appamatto and transactions are much easier to forget in this block chain because each transaction completely eliminates a previous transaction
23:42 MT`AwAy "forget" ?
23:42 MT`AwAy mh
23:42 appamatto forgetting is when you can delete blocks because all of the transactions in them have been used up
23:42 MT`AwAy yep
23:43 appamatto I guess every source transaction is already completely consumed in btc
23:43 MT`AwAy can bitcoin really "forget" past "used up" blocks without consequences?
23:44 appamatto yeah
23:44 theymos Bitcoin can also forget spent transactions.
23:44 lfm MT`AwAy, it has a slight danger cuz someone might send another transaction to the old address
23:44 MT`AwAy yep
23:44 appamatto theymos, what do you think about that bitDNS idea?
23:45 lfm so you shouldnt forget addresses unless you're really sure. old transactions dont matter tho
23:46 appamatto I wonder if the bitcoin block chain could be generalized to support any number of bit-x systems
23:46 ArtForz yes
23:46 ArtForz it's a distributed timestamping system
23:46 appamatto since the block chain can be used in general to synchronize and authorize any number of worldwide systems
23:47 theymos appamatto: It could probably work. Each block generates a domain, and then you can transfer domains with transactions.
23:47 lfm hwo do you reward people for generating blocks, or do you need to?
23:47 MT`AwAy lfm: people generating dig for a specific domain they have in mind
23:47 MT`AwAy s/dig/mine
23:47 appamatto or for a name with a pending request
23:47 appamatto i.e. a name they think they can sell quickly
23:48 appamatto theymos, yeah
23:48 MT`AwAy however this makes taking requests for a given name difficult
23:49 appamatto there would be an emergent system surrounding these miners. For instance, btc kept in escrow that is guaranteed to pay for creation of a given name
23:50 theymos BitDNS could be built on Bitcoin's chain pretty easily, I think. Just use special messages along with OP_DROP in transactions.
23:50 jrabbit huh don't you mean just using dns stucture to organize names -> addresses?
23:51 MT`AwAy appamatto: I think there's a problem there: what happens to those btc if someone buys a domain?
23:51 appamatto yes
23:51 jrabbit or is this somethin absurd
23:51 jrabbit well theres no need to modify bitcoin.
23:51 jrabbit just run a service
23:52 lfm seems like there would be no way to enforce trademarks or any such. if someone doesnt want to sell they dont have to
23:52 appamatto MT, you prove that you mined the name, then the btc is forwarded to an address of your choice and your name is remapped in the next block to the buyer
23:52 appamatto lfm, that's very true. It would basically be a 'free' version of the current DNS
23:52 MT`AwAy appamatto: so people would be able to "mine" already bought names to get the BTC for those
23:52 theymos lfm: Trademarks shouldn't exist, anyway.
23:52 appamatto no, you can't create a name that's already in the bitDNS block chain
23:53 appamatto but yes, you can mine
23:53 anarchyx its still a risk for single point of failure, having a central authority coordingating dns
23:53 lfm theymos, hehe well I can see some people arguing with that! not me, not here
23:53 appamatto anarchyx, there is no central authority, it's exactly like bitcoin
23:53 anarchyx someone needs to obtain and control the .bc no?
23:53 appamatto anarchyx, oh those are two separate ideas
23:54 anarchyx oh ok
23:54 MT`AwAy appamatto: ok so I'm back to the original problem, if you have "BTC kept in escrow that is guaranteed to pay for creation of a given name", what happens to those BTC if you buy a domain?
23:54 anarchyx then im not following correctly :)
23:54 appamatto one idea someone had is to buy and dole out .bc, another idea was to have a separate block chain dedicated to mining and transferring names
23:54 theymos In this case the generation rate might really be a problem. What if more than 6 sites per hour are desired?
23:55 jrabbit look at openNIC
23:55 lfm theymos, use subdomains till you can get the main one you want
23:55 appamatto theymos, it might be 50 per block, for example. but yeah, that certainly might drive the price of names
23:55 jrabbit they run a seperate DNS group with unofficial TLDs
23:55 jrabbit wtf "price of names"
23:55 jrabbit this isn't complicated.
23:55 appamatto MT, what do you mean?
23:56 jrabbit you run an NIC and dole out names as requested
23:56 jrabbit people who want to use it can add it as a DNS thing or it can be worked into the client
23:56 MT`AwAy appamatto: I asked you earlier about "taking requests for domain" and you told me about using bitcoins to acquire a domain, or am I mistaken?
23:57 appamatto yes
23:57 appamatto those two systems are separate though, with escrows in between coordinating the exchange
23:57 MT`AwAy appamatto: since there is a limited amount of bitcoins on the network, if not someone but something gets bitcoins how is it going to resell those to put them back in the market?
23:58 appamatto MT, btc is money
23:58 lfm MT`AwAy, btc to acquire a domain is for name that have already been created. the escrow is for name not yet created
23:58 appamatto basically the escrow exists to provide the miner with assurance that his mined names will actually be sold
23:59 MT`AwAy ok, so that's only for existing domains, if someone wants a domain nobody ever mined he can only hope someone will mine it since he's not running CUDA
23:59 anarchyx what if we just allow mapping to dns.. so if you have you could have customers pay to it, by creating a dns entry for that cnames to (there is no support for upper/lowercase though so we might have to put that into a TXT record instead of an A record)